hello and welcome to this read Z live
00:05
chat session hopefully you can all see
00:07
me my name is Michael Rowley and I'm a
00:12
fiction editor working freelance prior
00:16
to go freelance last beginning this year
00:19
I was a tour director for del Rey the
00:22
penguin Random House UK science fiction
00:24
and fantasy imprint and before that I
00:26
was those books size for 15 years half
00:30
of which I spent as a head office
00:32
fiction buyer where I specialized in all
00:36
sorts of things but but genre fiction be
00:38
my my main thing and it's been a it's
00:42
been almost 20 years now in the book
00:44
trade for me so today we're going to be
00:47
talking about world building and I'm
00:50
going to give you some tips on how to
00:52
apply them to your fantasy and science
00:54
fiction novel and a little bit on
00:55
mainstream fiction as well
00:58
so well building well start off talked a
01:03
little bit about what is well building
01:05
and at its core I guess we could say
01:09
it's most easily explained as the
01:12
setting or the landscape of your novel
01:16
often is described as being almost like
01:20
a character in its own right in the book
01:21
and the relationship between well
01:26
building and storytelling is is
01:28
absolutely vital and so important to any
01:33
novel and in particularly science
01:35
fiction fantasy are well known for these
01:36
areas it's there to support reinforce
01:39
and help bring life to your central
01:42
story and facilitate the plot at the
01:45
same time as I said science fiction
01:49
fantasy are well known for these sir for
01:50
the obvious reasons that they deal with
01:52
words that are you know not our own
01:54
perhaps or different versions or future
01:56
versions of them but as I said it's
01:59
important in all forms of fiction in SF
02:02
and fantasy though I mean you've got
02:04
your obvious major authors there that
02:08
the springs in mind JRR tolkien of
02:10
course being one that the biggest of
02:13
them George RR Martin's Game of Thrones
02:15
series of course is phenomenal and has
02:19
some of the most intricate well building
02:21
that the you know I've ever seen in in
02:23
fiction or anybody I think probably seen
02:25
in fiction we've also got wonderful
02:29
authors out there like Judy Callaghan
02:31
Robin hog Patrick Rothfuss all doing
02:34
wonderful and interesting things with
02:35
their fantasy worlds
02:38
you've got authors like ocean Le Guin
02:40
who of course have written in the
02:41
fantasy world and the science fiction
02:42
world and she really very nicely bridges
02:45
the gap in in a way but because she
02:47
she's done quite a bit of both you have
02:51
authors like China Mieville
02:52
the wonderful Octavia Butler Mervyn
02:55
Peake Doris Lessing
02:56
Margaret Atwood William Gibson Iain M
02:59
banks and Peter Hamilton just to name a
03:01
few of the authors that spring to mind
03:04
when talking about SF and fantasy
03:07
all of whom have got wonderful worlds
03:09
wonderful ideas and really you know push
03:14
the genre on genres on in in a terrific
03:17
way
03:19
so as an author
03:23
you've probably got two major types of
03:26
people when it comes to well bullet
03:28
building
03:29
you've got the planners who they work
03:32
out everything on paper about the world
03:34
the land the environment all those kind
03:36
of things they might spend huge amounts
03:38
of time on it's have books full of notes
03:42
even computer models of worlds and
03:46
things like that you can get and of
03:49
course this is all all terrific stuff of
03:52
course there's a slight danger in that
03:54
it's easy to plan and plan and plan and
03:56
never actually get down to the actual
03:58
writing of the novel which I'm sure I'm
04:01
sure there's many people who've found
04:02
themselves you know being wonderfully
04:05
productive and working on their world
04:08
building and then you know of course
04:09
never finding it of course the reasons
04:11
to delay actually writing that the novel
04:13
itself which is always something to
04:14
watch out for as it's very easy to get
04:17
distracted and forget about the story of
04:19
the plot and then the characters that
04:21
you might want to get get on with and
04:24
unusual this wonderful backstory the
04:28
other main type of author I guess is the
04:30
the kind of the more make it up as you
04:32
go kind of author and that's that's
04:35
equally valid way to go I think you some
04:38
people don't want to sit down and write
04:40
notes and notes notes notes notes and to
04:42
lots and lots of research and build
04:43
their world or they just want to get on
04:45
they've got an idea they've got a
04:46
character they love they want to get on
04:48
with it obviously the the main danger
04:51
with with that route would be you're
04:53
probably going to have a lot of revision
04:55
at the end of the book you know you're
04:57
going to have more difficulties with
04:58
continuity and making a big line up so
05:03
that's that's not a little and little
05:05
thing to to watch out for there
05:09
I'm going to do now is talk about a few
05:12
of the the big ideas of of
05:15
world-building some of the main points
05:17
the things that people talk about a lot
05:19
and the first of those we won't talk
05:22
about is location obviously that's the
05:24
that's the the most obvious thing and
05:26
that could be the time the place it
05:29
could be our world it could be another
05:30
world in fantasy fiction we often talk
05:32
about second world fantasy which is just
05:36
afraid to differentiate between our
05:38
world thought or up version of it
05:41
differentiate version of it was funny
05:51
scholars take books whose a Shannara
05:55
books are so being more or less
05:57
definitely set in a very far future
05:59
version of our world and so we want me
06:04
to talk about second well fantasy it
06:05
kind of gives you a bit of an it and out
06:07
there because you can do whatever you
06:08
want with it in a way you don't have to
06:10
stick to any historical paths or rules
06:13
there but the real world of course being
06:18
you know slightly more difficult
06:20
you've got geographical constraints
06:21
their historical specifics technology
06:25
politics all these kind of things that
06:28
you'd want to incorporate in there in
06:31
science fiction you know countless
06:32
futuristic books a Selma Earth as well
06:36
as other planets colonized or you know
06:38
alien worlds etc so you know everything
06:42
from the far future to the near future
06:44
to the alternate future alternate
06:46
reality where you've got sub genres like
06:50
steampunk or wonderful books like the
06:53
man in high castle by philip k dick or
06:56
even just you know your dystopian novel
06:59
which is of course extremely popular at
07:00
the moment so for your imaginary world
07:05
you're going to need lots of different
07:07
things you're going to need the
07:08
backstory
07:09
its history its geography culture
07:11
species language environment whether you
07:15
know is it a forest world is it a desert
07:16
world is it more or less like it doesn't
07:18
have to be it can be anything more or
07:20
less you want it to be if you're going
07:21
to have humans or a version
07:23
humans on that it's gonna need to be
07:24
something that can sustain human life
07:27
but you're also going to need to think
07:29
about infrastructure transport all those
07:31
kind of things for alternate reality
07:34
you'd want to think about the point of
07:36
divergence
07:37
you know what point did our history
07:40
change a little bit as at the knee of
07:43
the before-mentioned Malan high castle
07:45
you know the the Germans and the
07:47
Japanese won World War two what would
07:48
happen what if and then you need to
07:52
think about you know it's part of your
07:53
world building you know what is social
07:55
impact of that the technological impact
07:57
of that obviously you know there's all
08:00
sorts of things you could talk about
08:02
along those lines
08:03
all of these are major things that
08:06
you'll be wanting to consider when
08:07
you're doing your well building
08:12
so another of the key areas which we
08:16
mentioned a few times just before would
08:18
be technology and science obviously in
08:20
science fiction these are huge huge
08:22
things that you can want to think about
08:24
some people obviously build their entire
08:27
novels around those kind of books and
08:30
the ideas
08:31
I think but even in fantasy or
08:35
mainstream fiction technology is an
08:37
important consideration with world
08:38
building it needs to be realistic and
08:40
well thought out and have an internal
08:42
consistent logic to it in science
08:46
fiction probably one of the most
08:47
frequently talked about and looked at
08:51
things is faster than light travel an
08:53
indie fast and light communication
08:55
Ursula Gwyn created the idea of the
08:57
ansible which is a wonderful sort of get
08:59
out of jail free card for instantaneous
09:01
communication of vast distances which
09:06
several authors have used and it's
09:09
become a sort of like a staple of the
09:11
science fiction genre and has no
09:15
specific real technological sort of
09:17
basis in fact but it's nice and it's
09:19
easy and it gives it solves all problems
09:20
if you if you need people to be talking
09:22
to each other over vast distances
09:23
obviously you've got the archetypal Star
09:26
Trek sort of warp speed which is kind of
09:28
quite specifically a Star Trek kind of
09:31
thing and again has a sort of sort of
09:34
fuzzy science to it and then you've got
09:36
the more sort of hyperspace perhaps more
09:39
you know significantly based in science
09:41
kind of ideas about how one might travel
09:43
like very very fast through the galaxies
09:46
and the u
niverse I'm not a scientist
09:48
myself and I
suspect an awful lot of
09:51
science fiction writers are but also an
09:53
awful lot of science fiction writers and
09:55
the hard science fiction writers as we
09:57
call them meaning you're a specific
10:00
technological scientific basis in fact
10:02
or futures and perhaps we'd look at
10:05
people like RC Clarke of course who you
10:07
know I came with our dear friend
10:09
geosynchronous orbiting satellites in
10:11
his fiction all sorts of interesting
10:13
things about that and Alison else was a
10:15
wonderful scientist himself work for the
10:16
European Space Agency and has some great
10:18
ideas in his books and you've got other
10:23
authors like Greg Egan who's
10:25
scientist I believe by it by day job and
10:27
right some wonderfully complicated but
10:30
but you know inspired sort of scientific
10:32
ideas I worked on the book the Martian
10:35
of course when I was at Del Rey which
10:38
was a great book that we published and
10:40
it became a Sunday Times bestseller and
10:43
Richard and Judy pick and and he is
10:46
again he's a computer science guy he's
10:49
spent a huge amount of time working on
10:52
the Martian researching things what
10:54
everything about Mars they could
10:56
discover and of course he he spent years
11:00
and years doing that he I believe
11:02
designed computer models and all sorts
11:04
of things to chart the chart ejected the
11:06
spaceships and how it would take to get
11:07
from place to place and of course quite
11:09
famously when the film came out starring
11:11
Matt Damon there directed by Ridley
11:12
Scott we had we had the the fact that
11:17
Mars was discovered to have water and of
11:19
course Mark Watney in the book spend a
11:21
lot of time looking for ways to make
11:23
water and then I guess and sent my pail
11:25
and ten tense moments about that and of
11:28
course it's been discovered since that
11:30
there probably is water on Mars so he
11:32
probably taken a see time of him these
11:34
are things you can't you know you can't
11:35
account for but it's worth having a
11:37
having a look at I think one of the
11:42
alternatives of course is to go the
11:43
route of someone like Iain M banks for
11:45
this culture novels where he sort of
11:46
famously doesn't really explain anything
11:48
technological he does all sorts of
11:50
wonderful things he has droids of the
11:51
artificial intelligence that can morph
11:53
into different things spaceships where
11:54
the walls move around travel faster than
11:57
light speeds and he doesn't explain any
12:00
of it it's a conscious decision to go
12:02
for the story and not focus on
12:05
technology and of course it is a
12:07
terrific kind of rail jail free card for
12:09
for him obviously he was a wonderful
12:14
leading light in the science fiction
12:16
genre and it just proves it ya have to
12:18
know all the science but I think if
12:19
you're going to use the science and
12:21
describe it you really really need to
12:23
know what you're talking about you need
12:25
to check it out because there are a lot
12:26
of readers out there who know all the
12:28
all the ins and outs are there probably
12:30
a lot better than then
12:32
half the writers may do and they will
12:35
sort of call you onyx technology and
12:38
fantasy of course it is also important
12:39
you know are you gonna have black-powder
12:41
weapons in there are you have steam
12:42
power magical power things these are all
12:45
important ideas that you need to think
12:47
about carefully and all need to have a
12:48
sort of consistent again internal logic
12:54
moving on to Magic is of a nice lead-in
12:58
to that and life science you know you if
13:00
you're going to have a magical system in
13:02
a fantasy book it needs to have it needs
13:04
to have rules it needs to whether it's
13:07
set in our world or a second more
13:09
fantasy needs to have an internal
13:10
logical consistency there must be cause
13:13
and effect and there's lots and lots of
13:16
fun you can have there with the effects
13:19
of magic special people who are using it
13:21
you know all sorts of interesting things
13:23
so magic systems yeah
13:25
one of some of the great ones David
13:27
Eddings had the will in the word which I
13:29
grew up reading from 14 you know and I
13:31
absolutely love that idea it's a very
13:33
simple idea doesn't really require a lot
13:36
of you know Scrolls or magical books or
13:39
anything like that it's it's an idea of
13:41
imposing your will and using a power
13:43
that you might have in a very specific
13:46
way Judy can oh and of course has the
13:49
wonderful guild system of magic in her
13:51
series and I think she's probably one of
13:53
the the leading lights of how one would
13:55
use magic in it in a more sort of you
13:59
know taught rules and kind of
14:01
hierarchical fashion in a fantasy novel
14:04
I like highly recommend having a look at
14:05
those Patrick Rothfuss of course as well
14:07
is doing that wonderfully with his
14:08
series of books where you know you've
14:10
actually got you know the main character
14:12
retelling his story of how he went
14:14
through the first 52 books who went
14:18
through his magical school of learning
14:21
had to be you know that kind of sort of
14:23
sorcerer and was it all of us patient he
14:26
of course waiting for the next book
14:28
Raymond Feist as well of course are two
14:29
nice interesting different sets of magic
14:31
almost of one world had one and sort of
14:36
the main world had a different versions
14:38
so and then one character bridging the
14:40
gap between those two worlds of magic so
14:42
you don't need to explain everything but
14:46
you must have rules and you must stick
14:47
to the rules to preserve the storyline
14:49
and the plot Game of Thrones is a really
14:52
good example of what you don't need to
14:54
in the Song of Ice and Fire series we
14:56
don't need to actually explain
14:57
everything
14:58
in fact magic is so central actually I'm
15:01
becoming more more so to what's going on
15:03
in that book and to that perhaps the
15:04
main you know story arc
15:07
but he's not really big on explaining
15:10
everything and how it works and actually
15:12
that works to build tension and build
15:15
interest and anticipation and I think
15:17
it's just done a phenomenal job of that
15:18
and I think you know keep keeping people
15:22
guessing is is definitely a way to go
15:24
but again you've got to have a sort of a
15:27
rule that you follow through so you
15:30
don't catch yourself out during the
15:31
course of writing the book
15:35
but history culture language and
15:37
politics these are all hugely important
15:41
things to what any novel whether you're
15:44
writing in the real world or in in a
15:47
completely created world of your own
15:50
whatever you're setting history is very
15:52
important you need to have a handle on
15:54
the past history of the world in
15:57
futuristic fiction setting in a version
16:00
of our reality you need to know what's
16:02
happened between now and the book is set
16:06
in a second well fantasy novel you
16:09
really need to have an idea even if
16:11
you're not explaining the whole thing to
16:12
the the media needs of an idea of the
16:14
history of the planet and the cultures
16:16
that you're writing about just so you
16:19
have again this this constant consistent
16:22
thing going on
16:24
and indeed in contemporary mainstream
16:27
fiction
16:28
whether it's crime novel thriller you
16:30
know a little fiction of all you really
16:32
need to have a sense of history and
16:35
indeed current events otherwise you
16:37
could end up writing something that you
16:39
know especially if it's a including a
16:42
country that you're not makes it to you
16:44
may just get completely wrong and it may
16:46
just ruin the whole thing for you so
16:49
culture I mean again in science fiction
16:53
fantasy this can be extremely
16:55
interesting as well as in making fiction
16:58
but you need to think about the various
17:00
cultures and races in the book obviously
17:03
in a certain fantasy it's quite often
17:05
people will use archetypes
17:06
from history myths and legends you know
17:09
Aarthi orion celtic norse aboriginal and
17:12
i think the important thing to say there
17:16
is we've got a question about this not
17:17
going to a little bit more detail is not
17:19
to be too familiar you know you need to
17:21
put your stamp on things and I think
17:24
he's checking things up a bit and have
17:26
some originality and get creative with
17:28
it and again there's lots of fun can be
17:29
had there
17:33
language as well is another hugely
17:35
important thing again especially in
17:37
science fiction/fantasy some people kind
17:39
of ignore the idea of language in
17:41
Osha's and essentially just accept the
17:43
fact that everybody speaks the same
17:44
language whether it's you know a fantasy
17:47
world where everybody's Tamsin speak the
17:48
same or a future where maybe there's a
17:51
sort of a standard galactic language is
17:54
sort of reached supremacy again to use
17:57
the Star Trek idea you know they have a
17:58
translating device Doctor Who with his
18:00
TARDIS has a translating device Thomas
18:03
do you use you can talk to anybody
18:06
anywhere but if you want to go you know
18:09
deeper and do more I think it's a very
18:12
interesting and exciting part of well
18:15
building that you can get into Howard
18:18
different races or species communicate
18:22
how would a lian's talk to humans AIS
18:26
talk to humans or aliens one of the
18:30
common things that you could think about
18:31
there what if it was a mainstream novel
18:33
and your protagonist goes to a foreign
18:34
country are you gonna automatically have
18:36
them speak the language all these things
18:38
are hugely important to give the book a
18:41
sense of your reality and and really get
18:45
the reader you know to believe in what
18:47
you're doing that
18:50
so politics as well obviously an
18:53
interesting time with politics in the UK
18:54
right now and no real no cultural can
18:57
really escape politics if you're a
18:59
spaceship through an office you know if
19:02
you're on a ship on the ocean you're
19:06
going to have or any government you're
19:08
going to have internal politics you're
19:10
going to have global politics and I
19:12
think to the basis of any realistic or
19:16
believable culture or world or country
19:19
or city or village or anything that
19:21
you're going to create in your novel you
19:23
need to keep an eye out for
19:25
opportunities to explore that it's also
19:27
a really good way of making them
19:29
relevant and socially conscious of
19:31
what's going on as that is mentioned
19:34
before you know in the last week or two
19:35
you couldn't make up what's been going
19:37
on in the UK politics wise it's pure
19:39
gold you know I mean if you could come
19:41
up with something in half that good for
19:42
your novel whatever the setting then
19:44
you'd be you be you'll be doing some
19:46
great stuff
19:49
I'm also going to mention characters
19:51
sometimes people think about characters
19:53
as being a different part to this but I
19:55
think you know characters have their own
19:57
element of well building that you need
19:59
to incorporate everything from the main
20:01
protagonists the you know basic
20:04
secondary or or third-tier characters
20:05
might need you know some fleshed out
20:08
connection to the world they're in and
20:10
motivation history past connections all
20:13
these kind of things to make them
20:14
properly properly believable one of my
20:20
favorite examples of this is Jack
20:22
Reacher that each child books in his
20:24
first book he creates reach in a really
20:26
wonderful way you know he's an American
20:28
but he's born abroad he's lived on
20:30
military bases most of his life and so
20:33
feels certainly in the first few books
20:35
like a tourist in his own country he
20:37
visits a small town America almost like
20:39
a western-style setting you know which
20:41
is geographically almost irrelevant to
20:44
the story but he feels real he feels
20:47
like he's you know especially to an
20:48
English person reading his book about an
20:50
American you know not being hugely
20:51
versed in America and visited a few
20:54
times myself it felt real it felt like a
20:57
good way of an English writer British
21:00
writer writing a book with an American
21:02
character but having the option of
21:04
having him sort of see the world like a
21:06
tourist might which I think was a truly
21:08
a magical and obviously hugely
21:12
successful way of writing character
21:14
patrick rothfuss his main character I'm
21:16
going to probably butcher the
21:17
pronunciation of his name but I think
21:21
it's a quote I think it is something
21:21
like that he he is telling his story
21:23
through the course of the books where
21:26
several different time points through
21:27
the novels and he's giving us his
21:29
backstory his backstory is essentially
21:31
the major part of the work so you really
21:35
need to focus on your characters as well
21:39
but so mainstream friction I thought I
21:41
just lay a few little points about
21:43
mainstream fiction so it's not all just
21:45
science fiction/fantasy I've mentioned a
21:46
few of these before possibly both
21:50
you may feel when you're writing a
21:52
mainstream level whatever its sub genre
21:55
or type that you don't need to worry
21:56
about the world building as much you
21:57
know you're not writing science fiction
21:58
you're not writing fantasy you don't
21:59
need to go into huge amounts of effort
22:01
in detail and and that's possibly quite
22:03
true but it does have its own challenges
22:06
and I think you need to be very careful
22:08
about about how you proceed with these
22:10
things if you want to make the book
22:11
believable and enjoyable for the readers
22:14
you've got things like police
22:16
procedurals if you're gonna write a
22:18
police procedural knowledge you really
22:19
need to know about the police you need
22:20
to know how
22:21
detectives actually work in the real
22:23
world you can take a certain amount of
22:24
liberties of course and people do but
22:26
realistically you know you you need to
22:29
probably buy the policeman's handbook
22:31
that was for sale for instance that in
22:32
the UK and I'm sure there was lots of
22:34
interesting information online and all
22:36
these things can be found and researched
22:38
but you know if you're gonna have a car
22:40
chase have a car chase but are you going
22:43
to map out the routes how are you gonna
22:44
do that you're gonna use Google Earth
22:45
Google Street Map these are all really
22:47
interesting where the traffic lights you
22:48
know what are the possible perils this
22:51
is all part of world building and
22:52
research technology in in mainstream
22:55
roles can be a tricky one you know are
22:57
you up-to-date on the latest technology
22:58
are you writing technology that doesn't
22:59
quite exist yet and if so is that
23:02
deliberate is it something that you
23:04
might want to incorporate into the novel
23:05
is it actually a major plot point of the
23:08
novel so you need to be aware of what's
23:10
going on you need to be aware of foreign
23:12
travel like I mentioned before and if
23:14
you're dealing with your lawyers or
23:15
specialist legal things or engineering
23:18
or any of the kind of things that Joe
23:22
blocks on the street may not know about
23:23
now I think you need to pay attention to
23:26
those things and include them in your
23:27
world buildings would plan for a novel
23:31
we all work in different ways there's no
23:34
right or wrong way of doing things
23:35
necessarily but I think one of the
23:38
things I'd say about well billions make
23:39
notes do the notebook do it on a
23:41
computer you know there are lots of
23:42
interesting apps out there from Evernote
23:44
to Scribner and all these other things
23:45
that you can use to collect information
23:47
if that's an easy way of doing it a lot
23:49
of people prefer to use the old
23:51
fashioned notebook which is great if you
23:54
can computer back of any other staffing
23:57
I read that somewhere and that's a big
23:58
good piece of advice
23:59
maps are fun for fantasy novels they're
24:01
not necessary but I think most people
24:03
read fantasy where offers quite like a
24:04
mouth but I also remember that it gives
24:06
you a sense of distance and space and
24:08
the geography of the land you're writing
24:09
about if people are going on a journey
24:12
I mean idea in your head or a visual
24:14
representation of what that actually
24:15
might mean it's quite important to think
24:17
I think focus on the way the world needs
24:20
to complement the story try and avoid
24:22
doing it the other way around really the
24:25
story is the important story in the plot
24:27
and the characters the world building is
24:28
there to help them reinforce them bring
24:31
out the best of your ideas try not to
24:34
just focus on the world building and
24:36
then try to fit the story into that and
24:38
that would probably be my best advice on
24:40
that and again as we said if you're
24:41
complicating science to complicated
24:43
scientific ideas or even not so
24:44
complicated once you know if you're
24:46
someone like me you know but not
24:47
particularly since minded make sure you
24:50
do your research seek advice there's
24:51
lots of people out there forums and
24:52
things you'd probably be more than happy
24:53
to to give you advice on them and then
24:56
of course you know wonderful be sources
24:57
like Wikipedia and all sorts of online
24:59
stuff I'd also would remember to build
25:02
into your worlds you know elements of
25:04
conflict as I said politics whether it's
25:07
local or global you watch the news takes
25:12
my dish in the real world so yeah that
25:14
could be adapted to fit your world
25:16
especially if it's a fantasy well
25:17
there's also interesting things you
25:18
could use which will make that that I
25:21
didn't realism just so much better I'm
25:23
probably my last bit of major advice
25:24
there is to keep reading it's an obvious
25:26
thing to say it's probably a silly thing
25:27
say many ways but read as much as you
25:29
can read quality books as much as you
25:31
can but whatever it is you reading be
25:33
critical of it analyze it and you have a
25:37
have a good well-rounded sort of idea of
25:42
what's working what isn't working out
25:44
the marketplace maybe try and read
25:46
something that isn't in the genre you're
25:48
reading just to have a bit of a break
25:49
but do always think about how people are
25:53
doing things and while that's really
25:54
good he did that brilliant girl she did
25:56
that a great in that in her book I must
26:00
have her I must have a try adapting
26:02
those kind of ideas to my my story I
26:04
think that's a great way of learning and
26:07
again probably an obvious thing to say
26:09
but but worth worth pointing out it's
26:12
been a pleasure talking to all hopefully
26:13
that was some help and do do check out
26:16
the reader website it's terrific thank
26:18
you very much